Sumit Saxena
So hello and welcome to another episode of The CX Files. The podcast where the top practitioners of CX come and talk to us about their knowledge, their learnings, their experiences, and best practices, so that we can make our own customer experiences a little better.

I am your host, Sumit Saxena, and I am the founder of Merren IO. 2023 is coming to an end, and so is this season of the X files. So I thought the most apt topic for this episode would be to discuss the evolution and future of CX. And to discuss that with us today we have David Avrin, who’s a globally renowned CX keynote speaker and an author. He has had audiences. He shared his insights with audiences globally from North America to Dubai, to my hometown of Mumbai. He’s written not one, not 2, but 5 books on CX, including visibility, marketing and why customers leave.

So let’s dive into his perspective on the future of customer experience. So a warm welcome, David, thank you for being here.

David Avrin
Thank you so much for having me. It’s a great opportunity. There’s one of the things I really love about podcasts like this, it’s an opportunity to talk to a global audience and more and more. Of course, the learning is global and the delivery of services and the access to products and services is global. And so I think it’s a great conversation to, for an ongoing look at what’s changing, what are we learning from each other, and what do customers and clients and patients and constituents expect from us.

Sumit Saxena
Absolutely and David, II feel that I’ve kind of understood you. I I’m seeing like 5 of your books lined up right there. Why don’t you take like a couple of minutes?

David Avrin
I don’t think you understood me at all. You know. I’ll tell you that’s another thing. It just even on the in, the calls, on the zoom calls and everything else is are we curating a background? Are we doing something to be as professional as we can be. So, of course, I have my books here strategically located next to my head, and some of the other foreign language versions of them as well. As you had mentioned before. III speak and I consult on customer experience. III spent the first part of my career I had a marketing firm. So I did marketing and branding and public relations, and helped organizations better differentiate themselves in competitive marketplaces. I found the world of speaking and sort of teaching and training as part of that to help organizations, better craft the words and messages they use to distinguish themselves from others as well. But what was interesting was how much the world was changing in terms of our access for information, and of course, social media and the iphone and everything else. And I began to see a really remarkable shift in how consumers behave.

And it became far less important what companies say about them. Not unimportant, but less important than what other people were saying about them.  And so that began my work in my research into what was driving that behavior? Why are companies, or or why are customers buying? Why are they leaving? And where? Where was the clash between an organization’s actions and intentions. and the desires and preferability of the customers. And so that is what I have made my work here in my third act, I’m really fortunate to travel the world. I did almost 200,000 miles last year, working with organizations, speaking to audiences about what has become my mantra, which is helping them differentiate themselves future-proof their engagement by becoming ridiculously easy to do business with. And that’s my mission.

Sumit Saxena
Fantastic. And I’m happy that you’ve touched about touched upon the behavior of customers, because I think any discussion on future of customer experience cannot begin without talking about the future of customers themselves. So where? Where do you think? The shift in the customer behavior or customer expectation? Where is at this point and where is the future of customer experience?

David Avrin
Well, the shift has been tremendous, but on both the company and the enterprise side, but also on the customer side. On the customer side, I think it’s largely driven by an unprecedented wealth of options and choices. So much of marketing I remember back in the early days, cause  I’m old and I did marketing and advertising and branding in the early days, and you know, for local shops, local stores. We looked at that 3 to 5 mile radius, or whatever that is in kilometers. And then, of course, the Internet opened up the world. And now our choices weren’t, as far as we could walk or drive or ride our bikes.

Now it’s everything. And so competitors have become global. And so we no longer have to differentiate from a restaurant. Let’s say that is, within a couple of miles. But now it’s potential food service or delivery from around the world. And so the explosion of choices of products and services has been absolutely amazing for consumers. And it’s been a source of consternation for companies and enterprise. On one hand we can now look at a global audience for our goods and services. But at the same time we have global competitors for our goods and services. So what I think it makes it really imperative that we do as businesses and organizations is become not just competent. Not just compliant, maybe from a regulatory perspective. The key is this, we have to become preferable and that is, and what is what’s driving preferability today is different than it was 20 years ago because there was a time for going back to your question about. But where the shifts are happening, it was who had the most clever, the most memorable marketing messages.

Today there has been such an equaling an evening out of  quality. Everybody’s good and we’ve never seen that before. Maybe we were just unaware, 50 years ago of what? What was not necessarily a particularly great product. But now, because we have because consumers, we and we’re all consumers as well, because we have access to a bullhorn that reaches around the world through social media through Tripadvisor and yelp and rotten tomatoes, and all of those review sites. Bad behavior is called out very, very quickly. or players don’t survive and they certainly don’t thrive.

And so it has empowered consumers to have access to who’s good, who’s bad?

It has empowered consumers to recognize through the web that they can find anything that they want, and so back to the question of where that differentiation is my contention. I think you would agree with me that I think the real opportunity for differentiation today, provided we have quality, can’t take our off the ball. The opportunity is to provide a superior experience.

Sumit Saxena
Yeah, I’m actually sorry to interrupt you. But I was, I was actually watching in a video that you put on your website. And you speak about convenience. And I thought, it’s just such an important word in customer experience, right? So when it convenience speaks to access, access of information, access of product, access of ability to buy that product from wherever it is in the world. And I think that in itself has changed the way the customer expectation or customer behavior runs today.

David Avrin
Yeah, well, what’s interesting is, and I think the term is right convenience. But it’s more than just access. It’s ease of access. And that’s the differentiation it was. We potentially had access to things, but convenience kind of combines the 2. It’s not only we can get it. Can we get it easily? Can we get it quickly? And I ask audiences all the time, as I, as I travel the world. Is it anybody notice that your customers or clients are a little more impatient, a little more demanding. And of course everybody nods their head like, Yeah, welcome to my world.

Well, this is why we are being trained. Some might say we’re being spoiled doesn’t matter. It’s just the reality of the world today. Once again, as a consumer, it’s awesome because anything that you can afford you can get in most cases you can get it delivered to your location same day within a week, or very, very quickly. So our expectations have changed dramatically, you know, as I, as I talked to organizational leaders, and I’ll ask them the question, what do you think is your big differentiator? What do you think is your competitive advantage? And it’s always some version of superior quality commitment caring trust. It’s about our people all important. But here’s what the research shows today. People are prioritizing speed and flexibility and simplicity of process, and, as you had mentioned, convenience. My colleague, Sally Hogset, talks about branding that that different is better than better right today, and I would put even a different twist on that. And I would say, today, convenient is better than better, provided everybody’s good, who’s more convenient. It’s a huge and primary driver of consumer behavior today.

Sumit Saxena
It almost sounds to me like the incumbents. The market leaders are at a disadvantage because they’ve come with a certain mindset, right marketing work in a very different way, probably 20 years from earlier, right? Very different 20 years from now. So incumbents. I mean, it’s almost like shedding your skin and relearning everything which I think organizationally is so hard to do.

David Avrin
Yeah, well, and but it’s imperative that we always stay on the forefront on the cutting edge. And I think there’s a growing recognition that it’s difficult, because the internal conversation is always we’re gonna win on quality. And the reality is quality is the entry fee. That’s not a real differentiator. Today. I mean, that gives you permission to do business in the marketplace. But provided they’re good at what they do, I think organizational leaders, and certainly management is coming to recognize that as they begin to see new competitors as they see disruption in their marketplace, maybe a shedding of customers to competitors who are who are newer. We’re recognizing that some of the processes? How are we accessing information? How easy are you to get a hold of? How easy are you to pay?

How easy are you to complain to. That’s driving preferences. It’s driving frustration. It’s driving people who go online and leave negative comments. And so yeah, it’s very difficult environment. But it’s absolutely crucial and those who stay on top of all of that and look at their brand look at their processes, look at at all of that with fresh eyes. Walk your own processes. How easy is it to get a hold of somebody! How easy is it to find a phone number. Right? We go to websites. You have a question. If it’s just a simple question. There is no phone number. There’s like no way other than a contact form which we all hate. There’s no way to get a hold of them and that kind of of friction in the process, it’s not gonna fly, it’s not gonna work in the future. And so a lot of these processes, I think, as you suggested, were were created 10-20 years ago. And so we’re having to go back and re-look. Look at our business from with fresh eyes and stop drinking the Kool-aid to the extent that we think as long as we have superior quality that’s gonna take care of everything. I heard an organization leader. I was keynoting a conference, and the president of the Conference of the company spoke before me and did kind of a state of the company, and the last thing he said was: “We’re gonna make this year the best ever. And remember, at the end of the day. It’s about quality we are gonna win on quality.” And of course everybody’s cheering. And I thought to myself, I could not disagree more.

At the end of the day, it’s not about quality. At the beginning of the day, it’s about quality. Quality is the entry fee. We better be good at what we, what we do or the marketplace, will figure it out. But at the end of the day it’s about competitive advantage. It’s not. What do you do? Well, what do you do better than others who do it? Well, and what we’re seeing is the opportunity today is to be easier to work with, easier to buy from, easier to speak to and easier to pay and those who are simplifying process. Those are looking at contracts and cutting them in a half, looking at at, at customer journeys, and finding ways to help people skip the line and get to what they want faster. It’s exciting for me. I think there’s some phenomenal innovation going on. But there are companies who are dragging their feet, and they’re going to be left behind.

Sumit Saxena
Right? So I’m gonna come back and ask you, what companies have done this well, and what which haven’t? But I just had a thought so. We living in a society or a world where it’s a, it’s a renter society, right? So we’re not buying software anymore. We’re subscribing to software similar, we’re not buying cars as much as we’re traveling on Uber and all. So it’s not one short transaction anymore. Right? So this becomes even more. This convenience, this ability to leave customer with a smile so that he comes back becomes even more important. Right?

David Avrin
Well, we’re seeing is, and my friend Robbie Kellman Baxter wrote the book on all of this, which is the membership economy, right and forever customer of her other book. And it’s very alluring for organizations to have ongoing predictable revenue. Right?  It’s a phenomenal business model and very, very smart. It actually allows individuals to potentially not make a major commitment. They can try and buy. But we’re also seeing subscription fatigue. Now, a lot of things that used to be free all of a sudden. You know, it’s only, you know I’m talking American terms here, of course, like $4 and 99 cents a month or $10 a month.

But then you add it up to another one, and you’ve got an apple plus. And now you’ve got, you know, cinemax plus and you’ve got paramount plus and all of these networks in Disney, plus at some point we have to start making some decisions and start. Oh, do we keep Netflix, do we keep something else? So I think the marketplace is still figuring it out. And to me it’s really interesting as somebody who studies this and looks at the behavior. At what point do we get to a level of frustration that we say no more? Having a challenge in America. What they’re calling tip-flation tipping is sort of a big deal. But now we look at the screen after we swipe our card or tap our credit card, and it’s like, Do you wanna pay 24 cent, 25% 30? It’s like you just rang up my order. You handed me a cup of coffee, and now you know, it’s become a joke. But the marketplace is figuring it out. How far can we go? Right? We’re seeing the same thing with self checkout, very convenient for customers, unless you’re buying a lot of items.

So we go one of our our huge stores here at Walmart, and my shopping cart is overflowing because we’ve got, you know, 5 kids in their twenties, and they come home for the holidays, and they eat a lot of food, and I’m walking up to the front, and they direct me towards self checkout and I’m like this will take me an hour. You know your people can do it much faster, and they say, but no, no, no, we give you a choice, but it’s not a choice because you have one person working in 9 carts in a row and 27 self check out.

That’s not a choice. That’s social engineering. How much are we gonna put up with before we say I’m gonna go shop somewhere else. We’re still figuring that out. And to me, that’s really exciting, because I think the marketplace gonna look very different. You talked about the future of CX. I think a lot of those things will shake out over the next 3 to 5 years maybe even earlier. We’ll find out how much tolerance people have for self checkout. We’ll find out how much tolerance people have for AI and chat bots right, and probably that will increase its acceptance as a chat box gets better.

But there’s also a portion of the population that wants to be able to connect with a human being, because maybe their situation is a little more complex. Now, Layer, another thing on top of that, it’s we have multiple generations. We have young people in their twenties very comfortable with technology. We got people in their seventies and eighties who are not.

And so as a business as enterprise as small businesses, it is very difficult. How do we serve a 25 year old? And how do we serve a 75 year old because they wanna do business with us differently. So as we talk about the future, I think some of those people who are less comfortable with technology will fall off translation: They will die because they’re getting older, and there will be a generation who is everybody’s fairly comfortable with it. But the real question in my mind, and I’m sort of driving some of those conversations with my clients and my audiences is how much are we as customers willing to put up with. How much frustration? Because staffing is a big issue, right? We can’t air all of us. We can’t get what we want whenever we want it? How does the enterprise balance the cost and the technology convenience? And how do we both? So it’s a great conversation to have. And I think if you and I have that this conversation, let’s make a date. Let’s do it again 1 one year from right now, and compare the changes cause I think it’s exciting to see what’s good and what’s bad, and there’s a lot of both right now.

Sumit Saxena
I almost feel like. We are in the space of experimentation, and my worry is that we’ve entered into it, but we might not exit out of it because the technology cycles have shortened. So we have a new toy to play with every year. Right? So they I mean, yes, it was Chatbot and now it’s AI and all those things. So the luxury that we had of actually building efficiencies and getting better at it, we might never have again. So that’s gonna be a challenge.

David Avrin
But much of that, of course, was accelerated by the pandemic I mean, Zoom existed before Covid, but it accelerated because we had to find necessity. being the mother of invention, we had to find ways to connect, more often face to face because we couldn’t do it in person without a mask. And so we saw a lot of advancements and acceleration of certain conveniences which have been really really terrific. But we’ve also seen some things that that may not stick so well. I think conversations like you and I are having. We’re on literally on 2 opposite sides of the world, real time for my parents generation who’ve passed away, this is magic, friend, this is magic. But for you and I, it’s Friday.

Right? So this isn’t going away. But then they’re also prognosticators who are saying that conferences were going to be hybrid, and they’re going virtual. They were horrible multiple 3 day conferences on your computer. It’s horrible

Meetings on your computer, people are on. It’s very efficient. It’s awesome. We can see each other face to face. So we’re sort of seeing this part of the world. This part was too much right. We saw during Covid with a lot of restaurants eliminating menus because they didn’t want people touching things. And then they went to QR codes. Well, now, we are and I know this podcast will be a little bit evergreen. But as we record this, we’re 3 years out from the pandemic, and I still go to restaurants, and there’s a QR. Code. And I say, can I get a menu, please? And they said, No, no, it’s a QR. Code, and I say I’m 60 years old. My eyes can’t without reading glasses. I can’t read it on my phone. It’s too small. And they said, Well, no, no, but it’s more convenient so that we can change it. I said, Yeah, but it’s more convenient for you. But it’s not convenient for me.

And so that’s one of those things that we’re saying, Okay, this was a new a new way of doing what we do. But there’s a real downside to it. Delivery of food from restaurants and Doordash and postmates on is phenomenal. Is that gonna go away? Not a chance. Amazon and and Alibaba and all of those things we’re seeing some things that we’ve learned are very preferable, and that we accept as new way of doing what we do. And then there’s other stuff. Say we tried it.

Not so good. Right  even with chat bots, and others as well. That was those who are selling them who have a dog in the race or saying it’s chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, it’s do with the chat bots. You’re gonna save so much money on staffing. We’re gonna take care of the people. But there’s certain amount of questions that they can’t answer at this point. There’s nuance to circumstances that we’re trying to resolve that really require real persons. So we’ve learned that has a role. But we also need an off-ramp to a real person. And that’s when I and I do funny bits on stage about that. We’re on our phone going person agent, representative.

I think you said No, no right. And that frustration. And people laugh us like, but we shouldn’t have to yell at our phone to get what we want. But we’re going to get better. And I think businesses. I think that the finance departments, the bean counters, as we call them in organizations have had their say. We’ve gotten very good at cutting expenses. But at some point we were coming to realize maybe we cut a little too far. And yes, we’re gonna save this much money, but how much? How many customers did we lose in that process? Cause we’ve frustrated them. So it’s all still in process.

Sumit Saxena
The best example of that is Zoom opening itself office again. The physical office getting people back tells us that. So, David, let’s go back to the  transition cx future and we said that we’ll come back for examples. Right? So let’s talk about examples of companies that are doing really well, making this transition and that, and some companies, or if not companies, at least categories that are not doing a great job of doing that.

David Avrin
Yeah, I think there’s always some obvious examples and some of these are prevalent around the world, and some are less so. In America, many of the places I go. Uber has become one of the most a real poster-child for simplicity of doing business, which is kind of ironic, because we grew up, and our mom and dad told us, don’t talk to strangers and never get in a car with somebody you don’t know.

And now we talk to strangers, and we get into cars of people we don’t know. But when you really look at granularly at that process, and what makes it simple and convenient, which also gives us confidence, makes it predictable is that we can choose the car, we have an idea of what it’s going to cost, and then we can track progress. Which is also just an element that we’re seeing from others as well. Can you see the status of your order? Can you see where the process is of your car getting repaired. Well, everything is really manifest. Very well within that whole customer journey for Uber or Doordash, or some of those as well. But with Uber you can see who your driver is. You can see what their score is, so you can see whether or not they are pro. They let them know. If you prefer conversation or not, you can see how far away they are, where they’re turning.

You can chat with them, live. You get in the car. When you’re done you get out. You don’t have to pull out your credit card. You don’t have to do, because all of that is done. It is the most easy, simple, convenient process.

Sumit Saxena
No matter where in the world you are, It’s the same process.

Sumit Saxena
right. So I don’t go and learn how to hail a cab anymore. Go to the same app and get a cabin, and that’s convenient right.

David Avrin
But here’s a really weird analogy. They are the Mcdonalds of transportation because Mcdonald’s. If you look at what the real value proposition is. Mcdonald’s value proposition isn’t quality, it’s not freshness, it’s predictability. It is the most consistent, predictable good food on the planet. You know. A chicken nugget is a chicken nugget is a chicken nugget, and it’s going to taste the same, no matter where you are in the world the French fries are gonna be the same, no matter where you are in the world. And so there’s a lot of studies behind the fact that we would love to make the best decision possible. But we will oftentimes opt for the safe choice, right? That one may be good. I’m great, but I don’t wanna take a chance. I know that’s good.

What Uber has done is they have become so remarkably, predictably simple and predictably predictable. You know what I mean, and so it’s the easiest choice. I used to rent cars all the time, and now a part of it. I just get tired, and I just jump in the back of a car, and I don’t worry about it, because they’ve had problems along the way they’ve addressed those they’ve solved, those. Now we have a sense of who it is, and what their score, and the kind of car and look for this license plate.

And so I think that’s the greatest example, and I think organizations can look at different elements of that and say, what can we learn from that? Is there a way for our customers to track our progress. Is there a way for our customers to have confidence in terms of once something will be done or delivered so that they can move on with their life.

And then, in terms of bad examples. There’s a number of those. One was actually kind of funny. I was in London, and I was traveling on a train to one of the outlying cities to do a presentation.

I stopped at. I wish I could show you a picture of this cause. It just made me laugh. I saw a couple of vending machines that were connected right next to each other. One had had soda, and one had snacks and chocolate and chips and things like that. And what was really interesting about it was, there was no way to put in a credit card. There was no way to put in money. All there was a QR Code on the front.

So I looked at this really fascinating. And so I’m always looking for examples. Was it good? Was it bad? And what they want you to scan the QR code? And then you had to download the app and then you had to pull out your wallet and enter in your credit card information and your address, so you can see why they wanted to do this right. So now they captured your information. They can market to you whatever, and once you have all of that in there and you get approved. Then you can once again scan the machine.Choose what you want on your phone and hit pay. And it comes out. Now, what was really interesting and you would find obvious was that both of the machines were completely full.

Why? Because it’s a train station. Everybody’s in a hurry. So they created a solution looking for a problem. You know, it worked the way it did before you could tap your credit card whatever. But they convinced somebody that this was a better way. And who is better? For it was better for that company, because they wanted to capture your information? And if you did do all and all they do was create friction, and nobody wanted to play a part of it. I did the same thing. I drove through a hamburger place here in America, and they had a special deal for 2 sandwiches for a dollar, or whatever else. But they wouldn’t let me order it. I had to do it on the app, and I’m already in line. They said, No, you can pull over and just download the app, and I’m like, thank you for that permission.

And it took me 10 min to enter the critter. It was a complete pain, but there’s a disconnect. The company, of course, wants your information, but they made it harder to buy and very obvious studies. When you make things more difficult, people do less of it when you make things easy, they do more of it.

A specific example of a company is in where I am. I’m in Denver, Colorado. So for those. Internationally, we’re about right in the middle of America, just a little bit to the left. One of our airlines is called frontier airlines used to be a good airline. Now it’s a very, very low cost airline. And a year ago they issued a press release, and they announced that they will no longer offer voice support in their customer service like you can’t even pay for it. You cannot talk to a person, they’re not even offering, not gonna staff that. And then they tried to spin it, and they put a release, a statement that said, we have found that our customers really enjoy the digital options. And I’m like, really, did you really find that? And when you look at how many disruptions happen in airline travel, right? Cancellations all the time, I’m thinking. Gee, what could possibly go wrong?

And they’re not stupid. I mean, they’ve made a decision internally. We will be the airline of last resort. If you can afford right. And  there probably the bean counter said, there’s a formula that makes sense. But I would never fly them, because if there’s a disruption and I have an audience of 1,000 people, whatever waiting on the other end in a different city.

I can’t take a chance that I can’t get it resolved. I don’t wanna stand. I don’t wanna be on hold for hours. I don’t wanna stand. I guess we can’t do that because there’s no, there’s no voice support. I don’t wanna stand in a line.

So It’s really, really baffles me that some of the decisions organizations are making are actually taking away choices in a time when we need to adopt an omni channel mindset, however, somebody wants to communicate. Give them the option. However, somebody wants to pay you give them the option. I mean my clients pay me by Paypal and Zell, and stripe and apple pay, I mean. My God, they’re trying to pay me! The answer is, Yes, no. I think sometimes companies forget that

Sumit Saxena
it’s not only the money that they’re paying you. They’re also paying you in terms of time. And the effort that they’re making. If you don’t account for that, II think, you are undervaluing your customer. And II think a lot of these things happen because accountants become responsible for customer experience. And then we are into big trouble.

David Avrin
I think, in the in the theme of this conversation as you started it off, we’re just talking about the future. I think the future success is reserved for those who have struck a balance between their own internal efficiencies cost savings and what our customers prefer. And I think technology will help a lot of that. But those who look at even looking like in a call center those who look at technology as an excuse to not talk to their customers have it wrong. Technology is best used so that you have time to speak to the customers who need you.

That makes sense. Yeah, with chat bots and others as well. Chat bots is not so that you don’t have to talk to your customers. Is that so? You help those who don’t need it, who just need a quick answer. But then you freed up time in your schedule, in your staffing to be able to talk to the people who do

Sumit Saxena
Correct and the trigger bit is like achieving efficiency which leads to automation and not losing your human touch. And I think that balance is so hard to achieve. And I think it’s an idea.

 David Avrin
Different industries, right? It’s different with technology, with healthcare. It’s different with restaurant and retail and it’s exciting to me to watch, and maybe to some extent help lead some of those changes.

Sumit Saxena
So David, let’s let’s if there was one current trend that you would want to change. What would that be?

David Avrin
The one trend that I would change. That’s a great question, is I would try to knock it into the heads of leaders. Stop trying to force your customers to do business with you the way you want them to do business with you.

Some of them get very excited that they created a new path, a new technology. That, of course, is cost savings, and they try to drive their when drive their customers to do business that way, we know. And we’re on hold with the company, and we hear 10 messages that say, just if you wanna press 9. If you wanna use our digital assistant, please use our digital assistant. Please go to. You know our chat feature. We’re excited to introduce our new chat features like, well, there’s a reason why I’m on the phone stop trying to make me do it the way you want me to do it. You walk into a doctor’s office in many places, and they an urgent care center, for example, and they hand you an electronic device like an ipad or something that you were not trained on by the way, it so that you can enter all of your information. And I’m like, so the receptionist doesn’t have to do the work. Let’s transfer that to the guy who’s bleeding from his head. Let’s make the patient do the work. It’s like really?! And so I think that’s the answer. I think that’s the most dangerous trend. I think the smartest ways to give your customers and clients options, and I think the wrong approach is to push them or drive them or take away options, so that they do business with you the way you want them to and II don’t think customers will put up with it for very, for very long, especially as others become easier to do business with those who have too much friction in their system will become very, very obvious and we’ll struggle to.